Transcript
Greg Constantine [00:00:00]:When you think about future planetary exploration and places like Mars, the Martian atmosphere is 98% CO2, which is our number one input or our number one feedstock. And so we've worked on innovative solutions to create things like rocket fuel in order to produce on potential locations in the future like Mars.
Daniel Darling [00:00:29]:Welcome to the Five Year Frontier podcast, a preview of the future through the eyes of the innovators shaping our world. Through short, insight packed discussions, I seek to bring you a glimpse what a key industry could look like five years out. I'm your host, Daniel Darling, a venture capitalist at Focal, where I spend my days with founders at the very start of their journey to transform an industry. The best have a distinct vision of what's to come, a guiding north star they're building towards, and that's what I'm here to share with you. Today's episode is about the future of carbon capture. We cover the global energy race, turning CO2 into biofuels, propelling interplanetary travel, modular military refueling stations and the future of sustainable energy. Our guide will be Greg Constantine, CEO of AIRCO, one of the most ambitious startups reimagining the role of carbon in our economy and climate future. Headquartered in New York, AIRCO has developed proprietary technology that captures carbon dioxide and converts it into high value products including sustainable aviation fuel, rocket fuel and even consumer grade ethanol.
Daniel Darling [00:01:26]:Rather than burying carbon underground, AIRCO turns it into something useful, fueling commercial flights, defense operations and potentially even Mars missions. To date, AIRCO has raised over $100 million from a roster of strategic investors including Carbon Direct Capital, Patriot Capital, Toyota, JetBlue and has secured large contracts from the U.S. Department of Defense and NASA, including recent work on developing rocket fuel for the Martian atmosphere. Leading the charge is Greg is the co-founder and CEO of AIRCO, Greg brings a rare blend of operating and investing experience. Previously holding senior roles at Diageo and serving as a venture partner at local Globe where he backed early-stage deep tech and climate companies. Now he's at the helm of one of the most frontier-pushing climate startups in the world. Blending advanced chemistry, automation and strategic focus to rewire how we think about carbon.
Daniel Darling [00:02:17]:Greg, nice to see you. Thanks for coming on and chatting with me today.
Greg Constantine [00:02:19]:Of course mate, thanks for having me.
Daniel Darling [00:02:21]:There are multiple ways we could be addressing climate change. Why did you choose carbon capture as your focus?
Greg Constantine [00:02:28]:So carbon dioxide levels are the highest they've ever been and so for us at AIRCO, we've been really focused on taking CO2 and utilizing it, turning into a variety of kind of Chemicals and fuel applications.And so we have a pretty firm belief that in order to continue to progress humanity over the course of the many, many years and centuries to come, we have to find alternate solutions for energy. And carbon dioxide is an abundant feedstock that we can utilize. There's pretty measurable impact that can be had over the next five to 10 years. I think when you've got companies like ours that are going out and utilizing CO2 to produce things like aviation fuel. If you think about the aviation industry, it accounts for several percent of CO2 emissions on an annual basis globally, the makeup of it. And so you're talking about billions and billions of tons of CO2 that are emitted per year in the production of aviation fuel.
So that's quantifiable change. And so if you can have a technology or multiple technologies that can aid in the support of new forms of production, that's one area where you can have measurable impact.
Daniel Darling [00:03:38]:Tell me about that. Because when we think about carbon capture, we really think about those companies that capture and store carbon for thousands of years instead of some sort of storage capacity. But you're doing something very different there. You're not satisfied with just capturing it. You want to actually make it into reproducible items. How does that work and what are you making in addition to maybe the air fuels?
Greg Constantine [00:04:02]:Utilization. So we believe, and have a firm and strong belief that you can actually use carbon dioxide as a feedstock to create useful products for the future.
And so, you know, we, we set out in the early stages of our business to commercialize a number of chemical technologies. So CO2 to ethanol technology being one of those. Ethanol has a number of applications, right? It's obviously an industrial product that can be used as things like a fuel, but it's also a product that can be used in the consumer industries.
Things like fragrance, things like beverage, alcoholic beverage as well, are all ethanol-based.
And so for our business, early on, we really focus on a, on a strategy where we would monetize our research and development. So while we're working on our R&D, scaling up these ethanol technologies and fuel technologies, we'll sell the byproducts of our research and development.
Greg Constantine [00:04:47]:So we went into industries like the beverage industry, where we created products with that ethanol technology, where the volumes of the product that you need are relatively low comparatively to things like aviation, but the price point on the product is really, really high, and the margins are really high on things like beverage alcohol. And so from a business perspective, we went into these industries to generate revenue for a company but also allowed us to use that revenue to help continue the R&D that we've been working on to transition our business to these really large TAM industrial markets where you can have the most amount of impact. And one of those being obviously aviation.
Daniel Darling [00:05:23]:Amazing. And I can imagine that those businesses would love to purchase those inputs from something that is also contributing to the climate cause from there. Tell me, how does your facility actually look like and how does it actually work in terms of capturing this and transforming it? I believe there's a technology called AIRMADE as part of that. Maybe you can just run us through it.
Greg Constantine [00:05:42]:We take carbon dioxide. We're agnostic on the source of CO2. So we can take CO2 from any source. The purer the stream of CO2, the more efficient our systems run. And so when we combine that CO2 with hydrogen, also agnostic on the source of hydrogen, right now we run electrolyzers to produce green hydrogen with renewable power. And when we combine the CO2 and the hydrogen inside our AIRMADE system.
So inside our reactors, the reaction that's caused creates either a number of chemicals or fuels, depending on the ways in which you run your reactors and depending on the catalysts that go into those reactors as well. The facilities that we run today are pilot facilities. So if you think of a 5,000 square foot warehouse or a 10,000 square foot warehouse that house a lot of these pilot reactors, because a lot of it is for testing. If you think about it at scale, it looks like a traditional refinery in some respects. So you know, large-scale, traditional kind of O&G, petrochemical industry-related equipment.
Daniel Darling [00:06:41]:What is kind of the roadmap for the types of products that you want to start produce. Obviously you focused on those high-margin types of products to begin with to subsidize the R&D, which is really clever. Moving into aviation, biofuels, what other things could you be creating?
Greg Constantine [00:06:55]:The fueling landscape as a whole is a pretty massive one. We're very granularly focused on aviation at the moment. And the reason for that is you need to be focused on driving the output. So how much you can produce, and cost-how cheaply you can produce it.
And so while there are definitely a number of other industries that we've either already gone into or are going into. The focus for the business over the course of the next several years is really geared towards aerospace as a whole. NASA is a group that we've won several contracts with and have worked with in the past and we'll continue to work with on things like rocket fuel.
Greg Constantine [00:07:30]:Because, you know, when you think about future planetary exploration and places like Mars. The Martian atmosphere is 98% CO2, which is our number one input or our number one feedstock. And so we've worked on innovative solutions to create things like rocket fuel in order to produce on potential locations in the future like Mars as well.
And so there are a number of really innovative applications for technologies like this. But you have to be very pragmatic about your approach to scaling in order to be successful, because focus is very important.
Daniel Darling [00:08:01]:That's fascinating. So really you're starting here on Earth as a climate-fighting kind of tool and way to produce some of this aviation and rocket fuel here and capture that carbon. But then it could be something completely different in the sense of being able to just take advantage of the atmosphere of another planet like Mars to create rocket fuel from scratch. Where are you in that process? Are these initiatives sort of being built and tested as we speak?
Greg Constantine [00:08:26]:Yeah, they're definitely being built and tested. We recently last year won another contract with NASA to continue the funding and development for that work there. Thank you. And I think with endeavors like that, they're definitely endeavors that do take time. Any business like ours unfortunately isn't a software business that you can kind of scale overnight. There's a lot of iteration, a lot of hardware that goes involved and a lot of science and kind of engineering. So they do take time, but they're things that are being worked on today.
Daniel Darling [00:08:57]:Has there been a kind of technical breakthrough that has enabled you to start to do this? Because like I said, feels like a lot of the industry has been focusing just on capturing the carbon, but really you've unlocked the value of what that capture could be. Has there been some sort of technical innovation that has allowed you to do this?
Greg Constantine [00:09:12]:Quite a few technical innovations. I would say that one of the key or several of the key innovations have been around our proprietary catalysts so that, you know, these catalysts that are inside our reactors that cause those reactions.
You know, we have a few really strong competitive advantages to, you know, to others in the space. I would say specific to aviation, and one of those or two of those being the fact that we make a fully formulated fuel.
And so what that means is traditionally when you make a jet fuel, make a component of jet fuel, but in order for jet fuel to go into an engine, you need to blend it with other components of jet fuel so that it meets the spec of a fully formulated fuel.
The fuel that comes out of our reactors is already a fully formulated fuel. And so we've actually tested that fuel with the US Air Force and flown it in airplanes with them. And so it's a really key advantage that not only do we make a fully formulated fuel, but we make it from, you know, feedstocks like carbon dioxide.
So we have the ability to produce anywhere where that feedstock is. And because carbon dioxide is abundant, we have the ability to produce in a lot of locations around the world.
Daniel Darling [00:10:16]:And then I guess is the step from here really how to get that scale in production? Because I can imagine the amount of scale that you'd need to start to fuel the whole aviation industry from there. Where are we in terms of biofuels in aviation, in terms of the penetration in aviation? And where do you think it will start to roll out over the next couple of years?
Greg Constantine [00:10:36]:Yeah, so we really think about our commercial business in two sectors, public and private sector. So we do a lot of work with commercial aviation where we're really focused on mass scale, the really large volumes and the cheapest possible price in which you can produce. And then we also do a lot of work with the U.S. department of Defense and the government and defense sector, where price is obviously really, really important, but it's ability to produce modularly. So how you can kind of actually produce at a smaller scale more efficiently and produce in a variety of locations to displace a lot of the logistics and transportation. And so when we think about our commercial aviation business, yes, scale is everything, right? Getting to scale and having the ability to produce a really, really cheap or the cheapest possible end product is everything.
And so where we're at in that journey today is we're producing today and we're on a pathway towards that commercial scale. We anticipate by the end of this decade, we'll have commercial systems live here in the US.
Daniel Darling [00:11:33]:And on the public side, when you say you have smaller systems deployed, what kind of settings do you envision?
Greg Constantine [00:11:41]:So if you think about as an example, the war in Afghanistan. You know over 70% of the lives that were lost were actually attributed to fuel supply and logistics, you know, because of the transportation and logistical aspects of getting fuel to these really remote locations. You know, from our business perspective, the core feedstocks that we have are obviously just power and carbon dioxide.
And so we have the ability to produce anywhere where we get those feedstocks. And so whether that's mainland US, on a remote island in the Pacific, or any other location around the world, because we have that modular deployment ability, essentially we have the ability to produce in a variety of locations, which is really exciting I would say to the U.S. military. We've won several contracts with the U.S. Department of Defense. Two and a half years ago, we won a $65 million contract with the DOD as part of the Defense Innovation Unit. And just recently we've won another contract. So, yeah, a testament to the work, but also really, you know, mostly not just to the team, but to the potential of the technology as well.
Daniel Darling [00:12:43]:That's really innovative. Just in general, to be able to produce your fuel on site like that, are you thinking that maybe you could be an aircraft carrier? Each aircraft carrier would have its own, you know, fuel capture or fuel production facility. Is it that kind of small, modular?
Greg Constantine [00:12:59]:That's definitely the goal. Right. If we think about some of the first deployments that we did, they were sitting on the back of flatbed trucks, right? So they were containerized systems in some respect. And if we have the ability to emulate that, that's kind of the goal. Right. As small as you can get, but as efficient as possible.
Daniel Darling [00:13:16]:Looking back at the private sector, obviously there's a lot of talk about energy demands that are going on and the energy race against the US and China. How do you see this playing a role in that? And are you starting to see more demand for some sort of type of fuel generation facility around things like data centers or some of these power-hungr facilities?
Greg Constantine [00:13:38]:Yeah, it's pretty topical at the moment for sure. And I think with the rise of data centers, the rise of AI and the kind of the need for more energy, the biggest role that energy plays in what we do is really around the hydrogen piece. Right. So in order to actually produce green hydrogen, it's very, very energy intensive. Similarly, it's very energy-intensive at the moment to capture carbon dioxide directly from the air or directly from the ocean.
And so, yes, it is imperative for energy prices to come down and for energy availability to increase. From our business perspective, we're pretty much focused on the utilization piece, which isn't as energy-intensive as some of those other, some of those other factors. And so we just have to bifurcate our business or have other solutions in order to produce and not be as reliant on some of those other sources of feedstocks, like green hydrogen as an example.
Daniel Darling [00:14:28]:Got it. And so the actual energy input into the capturing process makes it inefficient in terms of, you know, being able to have that impact.
Greg Constantine [00:14:36]:Yeah, it does. And I think like, you know, as, you know, as we continue to progress, not only in our industry, I think you're going to see a lot of folks looking to other geographic locations in order to source their sources of energy as well.
I think if you think about Australia is a really prime example, right? Australia has, you know, all the feedstocks required and could, could really be a large central hub, you know, from an energy perspective as well as a CO2 perspective as well. I think like there's an abundance of those feedstocks available.
And if had the ability, Australia could really be a central production hub for a lot of these types of technologies.
Daniel Darling [00:15:10]:That's exciting. And what about the places that are the biggest polluters? Are they also going to benefit from this in terms of having, you know, powering out all these CO2 emissions? Are they going to be able to capture more and produce more in sort of that cyclical nature?
Greg Constantine [00:15:24]:It's a cost analysis at the end of the day, right? It just comes down to where will they reap the benefits? Will they reap the benefits in sequestering the CO2 and putting it into the ground, or will they reap the benefits on merchants selling that CO2 to someone who can utilize it in a product?
And so as more utilization technologies are developing and then have the ability to be commercialized, you'll see a lot of those CO2 emitters essentially likely turning to being providers of that CO2 to technologies or companies like ourselves.
Daniel Darling [00:15:53]:Are there any kind of innovations on the horizons or technology innovations on the horizons that maybe will provide the next unlock for you and your company that you're waiting for?
Greg Constantine [00:16:03]:One of the key unlocks that I would say that we're waiting for in some respect is just the decrease in cost of green hydrogen right? At the moment, the energy impact or the energy required in order to produce green hydrogen at scale is really high. As the technology, as they come down the learning curve or up the learning curve in terms of the technological development on things like electrolyzers that will have a really significant impact on our end cost to produce when creating a really, really green fuel?
So there are already existing technologies that have been around for many, many, many years as well. And so I think that they're some of the keys that we're looking for, for unlocks from that have tangential kind of touch points to our industry as well.
Daniel Darling [00:16:43]:You know, you're hearing a lot about material science, innovation, and especially the intersection between AI, scientific discovery and the material science world. Are you starting to deploy any kind of novel AI systems or any kind of models internally at AIRCO to start to help on the R&D front or start to help on the material science development front.
Greg Constantine [00:17:06]:Yeah, we've been using artificial intelligence in our business for some time only from an internal purpose perspective. And as those models externally continue to develop as well as the models internally continue to develop, we believe that there could be transformative ways to speed up different areas of R&D in our specific field as well.
It's still relatively nascent in terms of the data sets that these models have the ability to collate or have collated. But over time that will continue to grow and those data sets will continue to populate, which then will allow it to learn at a far more rapid rate. But yes, it's something that I think a lot of groups are working on or should be working on, or should be utilizing, I should say. And it's something that we do internally as well. If you just think about how you can optimize different areas of your technology so that you're not having to manually repeat R&D practices, essentially.
Right. If you could have robotics play a role in that, but also the models iterate for you so that you could then rather than having man hours going into that, it provides a lot of cost efficiency, but it provides a lot of time saving as well. And so I think it's something that will come in the future, but I think there's still a little ways off before it actually is something that's really applicable or has the ability to be applicable.
Daniel Darling [00:18:22]:And have you taken advantage of any kind of other parts of automation internally as you build your business?
Greg Constantine [00:18:29]:Yeah, so the majority of our hardware is fully automated for the most part. And so, yeah, we have a pretty amazing technical team that's come from all around the world that work on a lot of the things that we do.
And so the goal is complete full autonomy. Of course, you still have to have folks that are on site oversight and overseeing pieces of equipment to ensure that they're being run correctly. But in terms of how our reactors run and how they actually service themselves in some respect it's all computerized and the majority of it is automated.
Daniel Darling [00:19:00]:Are there other kind of types of fuels beyond aviation and rocket like, does this start to go into automotive and that industry too?
Greg Constantine [00:19:07]:It certainly can, yeah. Toyota is an investor of ours and you know, there are applications outside of just aviation. Coming up in a few weeks we're going to actually be announcing some other of these demonstrations that we have done in vehicles that aren't just planes, essentially. And so yes, the answer is yes and absolutely. It ultimately just comes down to cost at the end of the day, right when you're competing against a traditional automotive fuel as an example, it's very, very challenging to compete on cost, just let alone with the subsidies that are in place.
That said, there's always ways to innovate and there's always ways to come down the cost curve. It just is a matter of time and resource.
Daniel Darling [00:19:48]:And if you had to fast forward five, 10 years out, AIRCO is firing on all cylinders. What does it look like as an organization and what does the whole fuel cycle and carbon capture and aviation fuel cycle look like to you?
Greg Constantine [00:20:02]:I think if we're being ultra realistic, if we fast forward five years, the goal is to have a commercial facility up and running, which is part of the plan here in the US. And fueling commercial flights off that fuel. I think unfortunately, businesses like ours take time and putting steel in the ground takes time.
But if we look towards the future, the goal is fueling commercial aviation and hopefully with our defense-related work, potentially fueling other vehicles for the US Military as well.
Daniel Darling [00:20:33]:And fueling rockets, Mars as well, by the sounds of it, which is great. But given your place as a participant and innovator in the energy space, what about other energy solutions? What's your take on sort of some of these moves to nuclear and some of these innovations in there? Are you seeing a big groundswell of participation, innovation in that industry?
Greg Constantine [00:20:54]:Yeah, for sure we are. I think that there is a massively growing interest obviously in the nuclear space. I think that a lot of the work that's being done is really gearing towards potentially becoming a commercially viable solution in a short period of time. You know, if a lot of these organizations can get through the regulatory hurdles, because there are some challenges, a lot of challenges around that. But, I do believe they're being addressed relatively rapidly, at least here in the US for sure.
And then if we think about, you know, our government and defense business, you know, a lot of the work that's being done in deploying these technologies modular is hinging on new technologies or evolving technologies like, like nuclear in terms of, you know, having the ability to provide a lot of the energy in some of these much smaller locations. So I think, and we believe that it will be the future. Absolutely. And that it's something that's needed. But there are challenges that need to be overcome and I believe it's just a matter of time before they are.
Daniel Darling [00:21:54]:And it feels like there's a real big scramble going on for any kind of energy source that's happening in the US but at least a big awakening of the need of that demand and how competitive you need to be with energy sources. Anything else that you're starting to see become much more prevalent in industry?
Greg Constantine [00:22:11]:No, I just, I think the rapid rise of artificial intelligence, the need for power, you know, you know, the entire data center piece, it definitely has a lot of folks questioning the energy availability coming up in the future as well.
And I think it's, it's definitely a growing topic that people are drilling down on. I think like the, the change of administration in the US Is still something that's being felt here in the States just in terms of, you know, a potential level of uncertainty for the, you know, for the next definitely several months and see what transpires into the back end of the year.
But as the dust continues to settle over that stuff, I think we'll start to learn what the future is going to hold.
Daniel Darling [00:22:52]:Well, and you're ushering in a lot of that future. So thanks so much for coming to share with me what your vision is and it's incredible what you're building at AIRCO and what the next couple of years looks like from there. So thanks for coming on, Greg.
Greg Constantine [00:23:02]:Of course. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Daniel Darling [00:23:04]:As my conversation with Greg makes clear, AIRCO isn't just capturing carbon. It's redefining what carbon can become. By transforming CO2 and high value fuels and chemicals; from aviation biofuels to potential rocket propellants, the company is charting a path where emissions become resources and climate solutions become engines of economic growth. The roadmap ahead points to commercial flights being powered by captured carbon, modular fuel production units on military outposts or even remote islands, and even the radical possibility of manufacturing rocket fuels from the martian atmosphere. AIRCO's vision is a pragmatic as it is bold. A future where climate tech doesn't just mitigate the past, but powers humanity's next frontier both on Earth and beyond. On a beautifully circular piece of innovation that I'm excited to see proliferate out into the world.
To follow Greg and the work at AIRCO, head over to their account on X at @AIRCOnyc. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and please subscribe to the podcast to listen to more coming down the pipe. Until next time, thanks for listening and have a great rest of your day.
